1984 Oral History of Texas Ranger and later U.S. Marshall Clint Peoples: key info on LBJ stooge and later U.S. federal judge Barefoot Sanders
Not only did Barefoot Sanders cover up the murder of
Henry Marshall in 1961, he also covered up the JFK assassination in 1963 from
his perch as the U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Texas. And in the
1980's when Texas Ranger Clint Peoples convinced Billie Sol Estes to come clean
about all the murders (plural) that LBJ had committed, Judge Barefoot Sanders called
Ranger Peoples in for a tongue lashing in the 1980's.
Clint People’s bio at
Spartacus - https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKpeoples.htm
Clint People’s bio at Texas History Notebook: https://texoso66.com/2019/04/25/clint-peoples-texas-ranger/
Clint People’s bio: https://www.texasranger.org/texas-ranger-museum/hall-of-fame/clinton-thomas-peoples/
1986 Bill Adler article for the Texas Observer on the "Killing of Henry Marshall:" http://issues.texasobserver.org/pdf/ustxtxb_obs_1986_11_07_issue.pdf
1980 James Day book on Clint Peoples: https://www.amazon.com/Captain-Clint-Peoples-Texas-Ranger/dp/0872440559
Auction of Clint Peoples’ material - https://historical.ha.com/information/clint-peoples-texas-ranger-collection.s
Billie Sol Estes implied that Lyndon Johnson, Cliff Carter, Mac Wallace and himself had conspired to murder Henry Marshall. Billie Sol Estes pinned the murder of Henry Marshall on Mac Wallace, but author Joan Mellen dug deep into this case and determined that Mac Wallace could not have been at the murder scene on June 3, 1961.
Here is a composite sketch, made in 1961, that the Texas authorities had made of the murder suspect in the murder of Henry Marshall (I think that it looks a lot more like Billie Sol Estes himself than Mac Wallace):
Houston Lawyer Doug Caddy, who worked closely with Billie Sol Estes in 1984, told me that Billie Sol Estes told him that Lyndon Johnson would use military planes to transports his hit men around the country so that there would be no official records of their travels on commercial flight manifests. I totally believe that and I do believe that Lyndon Johnson was using his personal hitmen to murder people who knew about his criminal and business connections to Billie Sol Estes. Billie Sol Estes later said that he had given LBJ at least $10 million in case over the years, which in 2021 dollars is about $85 million. Estes was a gargantuan cash cow for vast amounts of under-the-table money flowing into the coffers of Lyndon Johnson.
Peoples had been a key investigator in the 1951 John Kinser murder and he knew it was Lyndon Johnson who manipulated the justice system to deliver a sentence of 5 years probation, no time in jail for Mac Wallace – on a CONVICTION in his murder case. That kind of sentence is unheard of in the history of Texas!
Barefoot Sanders - Mac Wallace - John Connally - Jake Pickle - two things in common: all LBJ cronies, all student leaders at the Univ. of Texas. Barefoot Sanders Wiki- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barefoot_Sanders
In 1962 Robert Kennedy's Justice Dept. helped to cover up the Henry Marshall murder because they did not want a scandal involving LBJ that would hurt the Kennedy Administration. By 1963 the time had come to get rid of LBJ and the Kennedys were using the Billie Sol Estes scandal and the Bobby Baker scandal against Lyndon Johnson.
Clint Peoples’ Oral History with the Dallas Public Library – Date November 21, 1984. Interviewer Gerald Saxon
Dallas Public Library
Interview VII
November 21, 1984
GERALD
SAXON: Good morning Marshal Peoples. It’s a pleasure to be
here this morning. Let’s go back and backtrack and pick up some material that
we haven’t picked up before in our interviews. You were just talking briefly
before the tape was on about your involvement in Kingsville during World War II
and the German subs off the coast of Texas. Tell us something about that.
CLINTON
PEOPLES: My
partner and I were stationed there at Kingsville, and, of course, the war was
on. Germany was really causing everyone a tremendous amount of problem in every
country. They were so powerful, and such a little nation as Germany is--not any
larger than Texas--darn near whipped the world. And so they had, I guess, they
had submarines that were all over the country. And I just couldn’t help but
think about how a submarine could venture off that far. But we got a call one
night, and we were constantly on alert. We prepared for all of these things in
the highway patrol and other law enforcement agencies, but it was our duty, our
jurisdiction, in the event we had an alert of a submarine being in that country
anywhere, to get everyone to cut the lights out. The military authorities
notified everybody to cut the lights out in every place. So in that country one
night we got a call that a German submarine had surfaced. So we had to get in
our patrol car, we drove all night long without lights up in that area--not in the
metropolitan areas--in the farming area around Kingsville and Corpus and
through that country. If the light was shining any place, we would work our way
to this farm house or whatever it may be. They were calling people by
telephone, “Cut your lights off, cut your lights off,” in those areas. Many
times that particular night, we worked our way into the country and had people
knock on the doors and tell them to cut the lights out because
a German submarine had surfaced to charge the batteries. And, of course, from
time to time we’d get reports about debris that had floated to the coastlines
from ships that the submarines had sunk. And, of course, the military
authorities knew that they were in that particular area. So it was most
interesting to know, and I thought about that many times, just how German
submarines could come that far, you know, and nearly cause lots of trouble.
SAXON: What
do you think they were doing out there? Did you have reports as to what they
may be there for?
PEOPLES: Well,
I don’t know. We don’t know. The military authorities didn’t, except the
fact that they were probably getting ready to blow up some of those oil tankers
maybe or some of those refineries or something of that nature. But what they
were doing, you know, they had to come up every so often and surface to charge
their batteries. That’s what they were doing on this particular day, or
whatever time they came up. We didn’t know exactly the hour. I think we did at
the time that they were sighted, but that particular hour--I can’t recall
exactly what hour it was--but I can recall having to drive all night long
without lights to try to notify the people, my partner and I, to cut their
lights out.
SAXON: Well,
who would have ordered you to have done that?
PEOPLES: Well,
it came out of my headquarters out in Corpus
Christi.
The captain of the patrol notified us by telephone.
SAXON: And
what would they fear for the lights, that the Germans would identify where
houses were?
PEOPLES: Maybe
shoot at that particular location; they didn’t know. That was in the National
Alert Plan, that all the lights had to go out once they suspected submarines
were in the area, because all up and down that coastline, you know, was a very
important coastline as far as Germany was concerned. If they could destroy a
lot of those refineries, you know, they’d paralyzed many parts of the country,
because of the oil and gas and everything that they were manufacturing down
there. And so they were really on the alert, continuously on the alert. And so
that was one of the functions that we had to do.
SAXON: That’s
interesting.
PEOPLES: Well,
I thought about that many times.
SAXON: Texas
has a fairly large German population; at least in Central Texas we have a
fairly large population. Was there ever any fear that this population might not
go with the United States in World War II like there was with the Japanese on
the West Coast?
PEOPLES: Let
me tell you something, Gerry. You brought up a very interesting point there,
and I’ve even thought about that but I have forgotten about it. Would you
believe we had a concentration camp at Camp Swift at Bastrop, when I was
stationed with the highway patrol in Austin? These German boys that we had
captured over the country were placed there. We had a concentration camp at
Fort Hood where the German POW’s were there. We used to run those people days
and days and days and nights with bloodhounds to try to catch them and bring
them back. Those German boys were trying to escape. Real nice looking German
boys, trying to escape to get out. They didn’t no more know where they were
going than anything on earth. The minute they left that particular area, they-
were more or less helpless. They were afraid. We had to make a lot of searches
in the area like Fredericksburg and all that country. Up in that country it was
predominantly German people.
SAXON: Right.
PEOPLES: Gosh,
along about that time, people were so down on Hitler that it was difficult to
find anyone up in that country who was a German. They didn’t even want to admit
that they were German people. So a lot of times the poor German people in there
were really penalized because of the fact that they were afraid to admit they
were Germans because we had to make searches on homes and things to see whether
or not they had contraband of some kind in there, or radios, or things like
that. There was constantly talk about radio transmissions going out, and this
happens all the time when you have a war like this, getting messages back and
forth. So we’d hunt those things. We’d sometimes have to go into the German
homes and search them to see whether or not they had some of these POW’s in there.
And so it really did, it posed a problem for the German people
that were in our country, real fine German citizens. And I felt sorry for them.
Really, I felt sorry for them, but I had to do my job right off. And so I did
it. I did a lot of this when I was in the Ranger service, running these
prisoners who had escaped, you know. Later on, we had some of the people up in
there come back to this country. They were army officials--German Army
officials--we had picked up as escaped POW’s. They came back into this country
later on and made talks and commended the way Texas authorities had treated
them. There were some interesting periods in there that, gosh, I’m glad I went
through.
SAXON: When
you say the POW’s, these were German POW’s located in Texas. Were they captured
in Europe and Africa and then brought over here?
PEOPLES: Captured
over in that country and brought overseas in here to be in concentration camps.
And they treated those people good, the German boys that were in the prison.
They treated them good, they fed them good, and everything like that, and they
didn’t mistreat them in these POW camps like Fort Hood and Camp Swift. But the
people were just so down on Hitler that they’d help you catch them.
SAXON: Anything
else you’d like to add before we go on today?
PEOPLES: I
don’t think so on that. I don’t think so on that. I just happened to think
about it, and I thought that that was a good point you brought up about the
POW’s, about the German population. They just didn’t know what they were doing.
I mean the people who were residing in this state, or shall I say in this
country, they weren’t trying to help Hitler. Oh, maybe a few of them were
sympathetic, but we couldn’t . . . I mean the German population diminished
considerably until the war was over, and then they started back again. It was
for their own protection. Of course, you can probably remember a little about
the fact that Hitler was so terribly hated. He’s killing our boys over there. A
fanatical rascal. Killing our boys over there, and then our country naturally
had to be against Germany. The German citizens in your own country, they’re
not all like him, or were not all like him.
SAXON: But
there was no wholesale gathering up of Germans like there was the Japanese on
the West Coast. And these were American citizens that they moved from their
homes and moved inland so there wouldn’t be any threat.
PEOPLES: Well,
it was a surveillance situation, an observation situation, as far as we were
concerned in law enforcement, pursuant to the instruction of the leaders. We
had to keep them under constant surveillance, and if anything cropped up that
looked like they sympathized with Hitler then, of course, we had to get in
there and find out something about it.
SAXON: Did
you ever find any?
PEOPLES: Oh,
we found a few radios and things like that. Small ham radio transmitters
around, maybe a few little things like that, but not anything major really. I
think those people . . . I’ll tell you, all through that country it was German
population, you know, and they were in a real precarious situation.
SAXON: Today
I’d like to bring up a particularly difficult case that you had to work on,
that you actually came into contact with while you were a Ranger captain. That’s why I’m bringing it up
today rather than when we talk about your role as a U.S. Marshal, and that’s
the Henry Marshall case. It’s very complicated. It involves political people,
it involves Billy Sol Estes, it involves a lot of names that people will
identify. And if we can, let’s take it very carefully so we can get it
down in as much detail as you can provide. Let’s talk about the Henry Marshall
case first. Tell us about the case originally as you came into contact with it.
PEOPLES: All
right, of course that is, or has been, one of the most interesting cases, I
guess, I have ever worked because of the political ramifications. I was in my
home in Waco--I had been moved from Austin’s Headquarters
Company--when one morning about seven o’clock, Colonel Garrison called me from
his home to my home and he said, “What do you know about this Henry Marshall case down there, where he
was supposed to have committed suicide or was killed or something.” I said,
“Colonel, very frankly, I don’t know anything about it, not a thing in the
world. I just don’t know. His case may have come across my desk if we worked
on it, but right now I can’t remember anything about it.” “Well,” he says, “You
had better get your teeth in it because it has really hit the McClellan Committee fan. “
That’s a national committee. And he says, “You better get into it.” So I said,
“All right.” And then, of course, I started out as he told me, and those
reports are in my files at the Dallas Public Library. I went to Franklin as
soon as I could get arrangements made, and contacted the sheriff, as I always
did, contacted the district attorney, and I guess that’s about it. And I
couldn’t get any cooperation whatsoever. I ran into a brick wall right away
there. That had happened one year before, and the more I looked into it, the
more it looked like something had gone awry, something misleading or something.
So I couldn’t get any cooperation out of the justice of the peace because the
justice of the peace had called it suicide as a result of what the sheriff told
him to do. So I went and sought out Judge John M. Barron, the district judge. He
used to be former district attorney, and so I prevailed upon Judge Barron to
order an autopsy, I mean an exhumation of the body, and then an autopsy. So we
did that, and we exhumed the body. I’ll tell you for sure, there was nothing on
that body then. I have photographs of it. There was nothing on that body
because there had been a preliminary investigation made of it by my Ranger down
there at Bryan when the body went to the funeral home in Bryan. The undertaker in Bryan called
attention to the justice of the peace and sheriff at Franklin and told them,
“This man is not a suicide case. This man has been murdered.” Told him his eye
was split open, flesh was out of his arms, his hands, his leg, and different
things that way. But they still maintained it was suicide. So the deeper I got
into it, the more I knew it wasn’t suicide. And then the sheriff, he got a call
from Henry Marshall’s brother-in-law, L. M. Owens, who is a kind of simple-like
fellow, and he says, “I found Henry.” Mrs. Marshall had asked him to
go hunt Henry, because he hadn’t come back like he always did. And he had
taken his little eleven year-old boy with him that morning, dropped him off in
Franklin at some friend’s house and went on to the ranch. And so he didn’t show
up. So L. M. Owens got out there and got to hunting him along with another
fellow, and walked up on him lying on the ground out on his ranch there under a
clump of trees, dead. And so L. M. Owens went back and told the sheriff that he
was out there, and they had found him dead. He made some mention of the fact
that he said, “Well, Henry might have committed suicide because he had a little
heart trouble prior to that.” The sheriff got the undertaker and the justice of
the peace and went out there. L. M. Owens and them met them back out there. And
the sheriff, his comment was, “If he committed suicide, he was a glutton for
punishment because of all of these severe wounds on him.” He told the
undertaker, “Load him up.” So that was extent of the investigation he made.
Then the chief deputy went out, looked around a little bit later, and found an
empty shell or-two. But they stuck with the thing that it was suicide, but then
after I got into it, of course, I found it definitely wasn’t suicide. I ran
into a lot of obstacles on it. I asked the district judge to call a grand jury.
Of course, the district attorney was supposed to ask for that, but he wouldn’t
do it. So I called a grand jury, and submitted a tremendous amount of evidence
to this grand jury. They had some relatives on the grand jury of the sheriff,
and so they never could reach an agreement on account of this grand jury
influence that they could change that verdict from suicide to homicide. So they
just stuck with it, more or less didn’t clear it up anyway.
SAXON: And
this was after the body had been exhumed and an autopsy had been
made? Now what was the physical evidence on the body that convinced
you that foul play had been in order.
PEOPLES: Well, the
physical evidence on the body was that it was the use of a bolt action .22
rifle. And in order for Henry Marshall to have killed himself, he had to rebolt
that gun every time.
SAXON: He
was shot five times:
PEOPLES: Shot five times in an area about
the size of a four inch circle. Shot five times. Also he had a lethal dose of
carbon monoxide in his body. I got the pathology report out of Houston’s Dr.
Jachimczyk. At least we did, the judge and I did, and he concluded that he had
a lethal dose of carbon monoxide, that this wound over his eye was incapacitating
and also that these bullet holes in him, were made under
suspicious circumstances. And, of course, he didn’t call it either way,
because of the fact there’s so much political pressure in the grand jury and in
that sheriff and in that district attorney. All of them were fighting me
because they didn’t want this case to be reopened. I could see why. But I could
see after a while they summoned Billie Sol Estes down before the grand jury. Billie Sol promptly took the
fifth amendment, and that was the end of the day with him. He had his
high-powered lawyer with him, John Cofer, or Hugh) Cofer, I believe it was Hugh
Cofer at the time, that was John Cofer’s boy, the most powerful lawyer in
Austin, had them with him. He just promptly went down and said, “Good afternoon
gentlemen,” and just left. And that’s about the end of that. Everything
in the world. I’ve got all kinds of evidence; I got a composite drawing of a fellow who had seen a
guy going in there a few days before that asked him the direction to Henry
Marshall’s place. He came back later in that afternoon and told this fellow, he
said, “The Henry Marshall that you sent me to wasn’t the one that I was
hunting, but I got a place to shoot deer anyway.” Of course, throughout this
investigation none of this was known, and no one was ever contacted about this
fellow hunting the place to shoot deer. This was nothing in the world except to
throw the service station man off. And that was maybe a week before. And
so we got a composite drawing of him on this fellow. And come to find out
later, he met the same description of the fellow named Mack Wallace that I had
investigated in Austin for murder ten years before. And so, of course, I just
recently in the last few months found out that this description of the composite
was identical to the Mack Wallace composite. So the thing went on, and I did a
tremendous amount of work on that thing. I sifted the sand out there, and when
I was finishing all my investigation, I couldn’t figure where in the world
that carbon monoxide could have gone into the body of Henry Marshall. And
so I went into the woods to the north of this place, like a couple of hundred
yards, and I found a plastic bag. It was stuffed up under some bushes. It had
to be put there by somebody. It could not have blown there. After a year or so
later, we couldn’t do any chemical analysis on the bag to determine whether or
not it was used, but I determined, though, that it had to be something there
then like this that was used. So since this other thing came up on Estes, I
later found out that Estes told me that they had tried to put it over his head.
SAXON: Okay,
this is so complicated that it’s hard to talk about it without getting a lot of
detail. You said Estes
came to appear before a grand jury, and this would be in Robertson County. This
would be a year after Henry Marshall was murdered. It was declared a suicide.
Who suggested that Estes be called? Do you recall that and why?
PEOPLES: I
think the district judge did.
SAXON: Did
you have evidence at that point that Billie Sol Estes was involved some way?
PEOPLES: I
didn’t have evidence as such, but I had everything that I could find out. The
first thing on a murder case, you have to establish your motive, and I finally definitely determined
that the motive was that Henry Marshall was killed as a result of possibly this
cotton allotment program, because Henry Marshall was going everywhere blowing
the whistle on Billie Sol Estes. And when he blew the whistle on Billie Sol
Estes, he blew the whistle on some big politicos, because they’re the ones that
didn’t need to be talked about. So that was the reason. I didn’t think
Estes ever had anything to do with the killing. I never even suspected that
then and I sure don’t now, but I suspected that he knew something about why it
came about because I had some more mysterious killings in West Texas under
similar situations that never have been cleared up yet. And so I was suspicious
of the fact that it had to be murder. Henry Marshall had to have
been murdered as a result of his strong opposition to Billie Sol Estes in the
cotton allotment program. That was a millions and millions of dollars program,
you know. So that was the thing I continuously worked on, and I knew I never
could get any of the information out of Billie Sol Estes with what he knew
about it.
SAXON: He
never would talk until this year.
PEOPLES: No,
he never talked to anybody before. No. Until he talked to me.
SAXON: Let’s
talk a little bit about the cotton allotment scheme and how Henry Marshall
would have been involved in that.
PEOPLES: Henry
Marshall had to approve the cotton allotment program in Texas, you know. That
was the case where they’d have these acres of land, and they could raise cotton
on them provided he gave his approval for it. What they were trying to do was
to cut out so much growth of cotton. So that cotton allotment program and the
political influence that Billie Sol Estes had was posing Henry Marshall a
problem, because he was
wanting to stop it and Estes was getting approval from the Agriculture
Department in Washington to go ahead with it over his objection. That
was the thing that was causing the problem in the cotton allotment program.
That’s where all the money was coming from.
SAXON: Billie
Sol was collecting cotton so that this land would be more valuable in the long
run. And Marshall was opposed, but was being forced by other people to approve
them.
PEOPLES: That
was the problem.
SAXON: Did
you ever find out who was forcing him to approve them or who was strongly
urging that he approve them?
PEOPLES: I
don’t think there was much doubt that it was high people in the Agriculture
Department in Washington. I can’t say for sure because I don’t know, but really
that wasn’t my jurisdiction to make that particular investigation on the cotton
allotment program. Mine was, of course, confined to the murder case, but I
certainly couldn’t get any help out of that because when they brought the grand
jury report down to Franklin, the Agriculture report took a good while to get
there, and they played “ring around the rose? all these years with that report.
They censored it every way in the world. They did then, and they didn’t bring the names out and so
forth, and the present federal judge, Barefoot Sanders, was a United States
Attorney in the northern district of Texas. I didn’t know he was down
there until a couple of months after, I mean a couple of days, it came out in
the newspaper. He went down there with an FBI agent out of Waco to find out
something about it. I understand he appeared before the grand jury in Franklin;
as I say, I didn’t know that until just a few months back.
SAXON: Now
when would he have done that?
PEOPLES: He
did that during this investigation.
SAXON: That would have been in 1962
probably.
PEOPLES: Yeah,
1961. During this grand jury investigation. And I didn’t know this until
recently, but I have real concern as to why he was down there, and I don’t
think he should have been. He
shouldn’t have been down there. Of course, he is the United States Attorney in
the northern district of Texas, and he was down there as the U.S. Attorney in
the western district of Texas. He was sent down there by Bobby Kennedy and
Lyndon Johnson to look into this thing, and to try to get this thing cooled.
And they flat did get it cooled because the district judge down there right
away after that excused the grand jury. So you see, I had considerable problems
trying to make an investigation on a murder case with opposition to it,
including that little FBI agent down there trying to say it was suicide. He
never even investigated a murder case in his life. And he knows it; he never
investigated one. He had no jurisdiction there. That
was simply my jurisdiction.
SAXON: After
the grand jury was retired and they had ruled again that it was suicide, you
were convinced that it was murder, but you didn’t know at that point who had
pulled the trigger. Was that right?
PEOPLES: That’s
right!
SAXON: Now
tell us how, since the early 1960s, all of a sudden in 1984 this story has
resurfaced again and it is pointing fingers now toward the top political
officers that you were talking about.
PEOPLES: In 1979 I
was carrying Billie Sol Estes to the penitentiary in El Paso the last time.
SAXON: Had
you known him before then?
PEOPLES: No,
I had not known before then, except through the prison system here. I’d seen
him here in the federal building. I had arrested him in the courtroom here
because of another case and put the handcuffs on him in the courtroom right
here.
TAPE 1,
SIDE 2
SAXON: You
mentioned that you arrested Billie Sol Estes while he was in court in Dallas.
PEOPLES: Yeah: Because
he was on another case here, and I arrested him on a parole violation. That’s
when he went back to the penitentiary. And I was taking him back to El Paso on
the plane, and on the way out there I was talking to him, and I asked him, “Billie Sol, you’ve got some
information on the case that I’ve been very interested in for years.” And I
said, “I think you could help clear this case up.” And I said, “I’d appreciate
anything that you could tell me that would help me in this case.” He
said, “Marshal, I know you’ve been interested in the case all these years and
it’s concerned me, and I thought several times about calling you and telling you.”
And I said, “Well, tell me,” and I said, “I’ve been looking at you Billie Sol.”
And he says, “Marshal, you’re looking in the wrong direction.” Here is his
direct comment. And I said, “Why and who?” He said, “You need to be looking in the direction of the
people that had the most to lose.” And I said, “Are you talking about
Washington?” He said, “That’s right. They’re the people who have the most to
lose. I didn’t have all that to lose. They were the ones getting the money, the
big money, and they were the ones that were going to lose plenty if this thing
surfaced.” But he said, “I cannot tell you anything. I will not tell you
anything until I get out of the federal penitentiary. When I do, I will call
you and tell you about it.” So when he got out of the penitentiary, he got back
into Abilene, and he called me. He says, “Say, I’m ready to talk to you.” I
talked to my U.S. Attorney and told him that Estes called, and I said, “I’m a
federal marshal and I don’t make any investigations, but this is a murder case
and it’s one I investigated as a Ranger captain. I feel like I need to go and
listen to him.” He says, “You most certainly do.” He said, “If you didn’t, and
thinking back years later, you know more about the case than anybody else. You
investigated it, you are obligated to go and talk to him.” Well, all right. I
went out there, and Billie Sol Estes told me at the time, he said, “I’m going
to talk to my lawyer, and I’m going to clean up everything that I can possibly
clean up.” He said, “There’s
more involved in this case, besides the Henry Marshall case, and a big
involvement. It takes in lots of big politicians, it takes all that in. I’m
gonna get my attorney and clean it all up.” So when I got all through talking
to him though, I told him, “There’s one thing I want you to tell me, who
murdered Henry Marshall?” He said, “Mack Wallace.” Now, before I left, I
made a tape recording, and I have a copy of that tape recording. Before I left I made it, and
Billie Sol Estes put it on tape as to why I was out there. And I think I gave
you a copy of this tape. So I started from there and somehow or another the
press got ahold of it, they had a press release. The district attorney
in Franklin called me and said that he wanted to talk to me. I said, “Come on
in.” And I told him, “I’ll tell you anything in the world I know about that. If
you want to call a grand jury, you call it, and I’ll come down
there and testify about how it started years ago and how it is right now.” So he called a grand jury, and
Billie Sol went down there too, and he did his testifying, and I can’t say what
he testified to on this tape recorder because that’s a grand jury proceedings.
But he testified, and that’s where we were. We were working right along, and he has since then had a
tremendous amount of pressure put on him to keep his mouth shut.
SAXON: Has
he told you that?
PEOPLES: Sure: You
bet he had. And not only that, Billie Sol Estes didn’t even know when he told
me that Mack Wallace was the one, he didn’t know that Mack Wallace was dead.
Neither did I. Mack Wallace was killed in 1971 in a car wreck under suspicious
circumstances in Pittsburgh, Texas. I
don’t know, I didn’t investigate this thing, but I’ve heard that since then.
Mack Wallace fits the composite absolutely right. And since this has gone on, I
tried every way in the world, and I finally got the reports, the FBI reports and the Naval
Intelligence reports, trying to tie Mack Wallace in there. This is a tremendous
file that I have, where they made the investigation on Mack Wallace. He had
secret clearance and a very classified job for LTV, and so he got this secret
clearance by big political help. I can’t say positively how, except the fact
that when a Naval Intelligence officer by the name of A. C. Sullivan came and
talked to me at Waco when I was a Ranger there, about Mack Wallace, asking me
what I knew about it. I said, “I know that he’s a murderer, I know that he’s a
homosexual according to all the evidence. It came out in this
investigation in Austin ten years ago. I know that all the evidence shows that
he was a communist.” I said, “With all these things, and he was also accused of incest with his own
daughter,” and I said, “All these thing coming about, how in the world can this fellow ever get
a security clearance to work in a classified position. This man is a convict.”
“Well,” he said, “He got it, and we’re trying to take it away from him.” And he
said, “That’s the situation.” I said, “Well, how can he do it?” And he said,
“Politics:” I said, “Who in world was ever so politically powerful that could
get him a secret clearance.” He said, “The Vice-President.” Of course, that was
Lyndon Johnson at the time. Then, at that time, things were just
beginning to come together on this case because when I investigated Mack
Wallace in Austin for killing Doug Kinser, all investigations showed that Doug
Kinser was a homosexual. Mack Wallace’s wife, I’ve got a statement in my files
(you’ve got them now) showing that she was a homosexual. Mack Wallace was, and also all the
evidence pointed that Lyndon Johnson’s sister was a homo. Kinser liked her,
Mack Wallace liked her, and all the evidence at that time pointed that the big
problem was the jealousy between her and Kinser . . . between this gal. All of
the evidence pointed that way in my investigation. All of the evidence pointed
that he was a communist because Homer P. Rainey, president of the UT
student body, got run off out there on account of some implications of some
type along those lines. And Mack Wallace led a march on the capitol when he was
president of the student body to try to keep the governor--to try to keep him.
And then, of course, he ran for governor--Homer P. Rainey did--ran for governor
after they had put him out of his presidency of the UT student body, and, of
course, he was soundly defeated. Mack Wallace more or less handled his campaign for him. So all
of those people were together. All of this investigation led back. And when Mack Wallace was tried
in there, and never in all of my time have I known this to happen, he was given
a five year suspended sentence for murder with malice. Never in all my tenure
in law enforcement have I heard of this happening, and I have not since. Five
year suspended for murder with malice: Of
course, all of it went right back to the fact that there was high influence
with grand jury. Now here’s something else we must remember: Mack Wallace
was represented by John Cofer, big powerful attorney, and Polk Shelton, two of
the biggest, powerful criminal attorneys in Texas. These same people
represented Billie Sol Estes. See the point.
SAXON: And
the same people represented Lyndon Johnson in 1948.
PEOPLES: That’s
right. The same represented him in that Duval County election down there. These
same people. This thing is so big politically that it is a problem to get anything
done. It’s still a problem. They’re still trying to
cover it up, trying to keep anything from going.
SAXON: You
brought up the Mack Wallace case and the Kinser murder. Let’s deal with that in
some detail and then follow through with Billie Sol Estes.
PEOPLES: What
happened on that was that Mack Wallace was with the Agriculture Department, and
all the evidence pointed there that Lyndon got him the job with the Agriculture Department. All of these
newspaper articles are trying to say that they didn’t know each other, which is
a bunch of mess. Mack Wallace came down from Virginia, and the car when we
arrested him had a Virginia license. He came down from Virginia and drove
straight to that golf course and he killed him. He just walked in there and
started shooting Doug Kinser. Then he had his route all planned out to try to
escape. One of the big people who was on the jury was one of the people
at the store where he made sure he recognized him as being out there. He had a
time element in there of about fifteen minutes that he wanted to more or less
lay his groundwork for showing that it wasn’t him who did the killing. And he disposed of this gun on
the way, but this gun, this little German-made automatic--I think it’s a .625
automatic--we got the shells down there at the Pitch ‘n Putt Golf Course, and
got some out of his car. He had a sweater on or something, and we found one in
his sweater. I had a paraffin test done on it out there at the Department of
Public Safety that night and it showed to be nitrates on that. But he
made this round. He had it all mapped out ahead, time of how he was going to
leave out of there. Had every bit of that mapped out. And this little old gun,
when we got Mack Wallace, his right thumb had been cut across here. And we
couldn’t figure out how it was cut. Of course, he wasn’t going to tell you the
time of day. But we made a good case on him, and we didn’t find the gun, but we
found some shells identical to it in his pocket. See. And then I found out later that this little .625
pistol he got from an FBI agent by the name of Joe Shots. Joe had given him
this gun because he knew him at the university. He roomed with him at the
university. He had given him this gun. Joe, of course, had nothing to do
with it, but I understand Hoover raised a lot of fuss about him even being
connected with it in any manner.
SAXON: Hoover?
J. Edgar?
PEOPLES: Yes.
With Shots. But Joe didn’t do anything. He just gave him this pistol. He didn’t
know he was going to kill him, and he fell out with Mack Wallace because of the
fact that he got off down there and got in trouble. But that little gun, if he shot it, that ejector
in there, if you had your thumb a certain way, it would have cut your thumb.
And that’s where the blood came from, when he shot Kinser. That thing going
back and forth cut his thumb. We didn’t know until late that that’s where that
blood came from. So we made a fine case on him. There wasn’t any doubt
that the big influence came down somewhere through the circles, either through
the jury through some of the people who were on the jury, or what have you. The
district attorney handled it pretty good. He kept himself pretty well aloof
from it the best he could. I don’t know. I just don’t know.
SAXON: Well,
the motive that you read about in the paper was that Kinser was supposedly
having an affair with Mack Wallace’s wife.
PEOPLES: That’s
right.
SAXON: But
you just said that you all have evidence that Kinser and Mack Wallace were having
a lovers’ quarrel with Johnson’s sister.
PEOPLES: Yeah, all
of our evidence pointed towards that. Every bit of it.
Every bit of the people you talked to. You see, there’s so many homosexuals
involved when we were making this investigation. So many people were involved
in it. You see, homosexuality then was really frowned on. As far as I’m
concerned, it ought to be frowned on now. I frown on it. But anyway, they
talked pretty freely with you after you really got down with them and talked
with them about it. So
they all knew this plan together. They all knew them together. Just like Homer
Rainey and Mack Wallace were communistic friends. But, you see, all
of those things when they came out, I mean when the investigation came out,
pointed right in that direction on everything.
SAXON: I
have to ask. . .
PEOPLES: Andre
Wallace told me herself, she’s dead now too, you know.
SAXON: That’s
his wife. His first wife.
PEOPLES: She told
me herself that Mack Wallace was madder at Kinser because he was fooling with
this Johnson gal, whoever she was. I can’t remember her name.
SAXON: It’s
Josepha I think. Okay, so he was jealous of her. . . PEOPLES: Kinser
was going with Mack’s wife too.
SAXON: So
he had ample motive to kill Kinser, and that was proven in the court anyway.
PEOPLES: Yeah,
you will find in these files that I gave you the statement in there about what Andre Wallace had to say about
Mack having incest with his daughter. You are not dealing with Sunday
school and church people at all.
SAXON: And
he only got a five year suspended sentence for murder with malice. And you feel
that Johnson’s connections helped to certainly to hold that sentence a great
deal.
PEOPLES: Well,
every indication points in that direction. Of course, that all was handled
through his lawyers, you know. For instance, like his lawyers, when they came
up for Billie Sol Estes’s trial, you know, his lawyers didn’t even put Billie
Sol on the stand or put one bit of evidence in. They just rested their case,
and Billie Sol was convicted. Government conviction, and they just arrested
him. No evidence and you know why: Billie Sol told me that the
reason why they didn’t want to put any evidence in was because it would open up
Pandora’s box. He told me that a few months back.
SAXON: Ina
lot of ways, the Mack Wallace-Kinser case was the same. Well, the DA never came up with a motive. He never
introduced a motive in the whole murder case according to the newspapers. Some
people suspect they didn’t even want to talk about motive. And then John Cofer
only introduced character witnesses for Mack Wallace.
PEOPLES: That’s
right. That’s right. I always suspected that the grand jury read something into
this too. You see, they must have thought they were dealing with a bunch of
clowns here, why give him a sentence. The other is as bad as he was. To me as a
professional officer, I read that in there myself. I bet that’s the reason because of the lack of
evidence presented to the grand jury on the part of the district attorney. Of
course, he talked to me out of both sides and mouth. I don’t know
whether he’s right or wrong. I don’t know what. . .I just can’t say that he had
any involvement in it. I can’t say it. I just didn’t feel like the proper information was put in there to
the jury.
SAXON: When
you say he had any involvement, are you talking about the DA?
PEOPLES: I’m
talking about the DA. I can’t say that he did or he didn’t. I don’t know.
That’s not for me to judge.
SAXON: Do
you recall his name? PEOPLES: Bob Long.
SAXON: Bob
Long. So after Mack Wallace was convicted and given a five year suspended
sentence, he more or less continued life as usual. Is that right?
PEOPLES: Yeah’. Yeah, he went right on
back on his job in the Agriculture Department, and he left there and came down
here and went into this classified job at LTV. Then he shifted around
here. And even since this other came up, these people in LTV hadn’t cooperated at all in trying to
establish time, dates, and everything like that. They closed that file. I got
such thick files that I finally got the freedom of information from the Naval
Intelligence and from the FBI file. I got such a thick file. It took months. It
cost thousands upon thousands of dollars for the FBI, Naval Intelligence, and
several months’ work. Naval Intelligence just trying to keep him from keeping
that secret clearance. And that points right back to what Sullivan said, the
political influence.
SAXON: You
had no idea until Billie Sol Estes pointed the finger at Mack Wallace that
Wallace was involved with the Henry Marshall case.
PEOPLES: I
had no idea. Then he laughed at me about this--Estes did. He said, “Well, it
looks to me like as good an investigator as you are,” he says, “that you would
have suspected that.” He said, “I just can’t figure out yet why you didn’t
suspect it.” He said, “It’s all put right together.” I said, “Yeah, it is now.”
SAXON: It
makes sense now.
PEOPLES: Makes
sense now. And it all fits right in. Every bit fits right in. Well, he told me,
when I was talking to him about this case, Estes told me things that. . .and
that’s the reason the grand jury down there--I wouldn’t say what he said in the
grand jury proceeding--but that’s the reason why they came back and ruled this
a homicide. They got a grand jury then that wasn’t biased or anything. But he
told me things about this, about some letters that were written by some people
in the Agriculture Department, he told me about this use of a plastic bag and
how it was used and he told me all of the things. I mean things about this
thing that he had had to have known something about it in order to tell.
SAXON: You
say you can’t reveal what he said to the grand jury?
PEOPLES: No.
SAXON: But
you can reveal what he said to you in Abilene.
PEOPLES: I can
reveal what he spoke to me.
SAXON: What
did he say to you? Be as specific as possible.
PEOPLES: He just
said that it was arranged by Cliff Carter and Lyndon Johnson to dispose of
Henry Marshall. Cliff Carter’s dead now too, you know.
SAXON: Sure,
they’re all dead except Billie Sol.
PEOPLES: All
except Billie Sol.
SAXON: When
that hit the papers, that was like dynamite.
PEOPLES: Sure
it was. That’s why there’s
one particular judge that’s mad at me, you know, because of the fact that this
got out in the papers about Estes. If he hadn’t been so worried about
his own situation it doesn’t seem to me like. . .two days later was whenever I
heard about him being down there. I don’t like it now, because he’s down there
messing around with a murder case.
SAXON: Does
other evidence seem to corroborate what Billie Sol Estes told you, because what
has been played in the paper is “convicted swindler Billie Sol Estes levels
charges at a president and Mack Wallace and at Clifton Carter, who were very
close to the president.” They are all dead now. So now he’s
talking and they say here’s a convicted swindler telling more lies. Now is
there physical and other evidence that would corroborate what he said?
PEOPLES: Oh yeah, because it all fits
together. You see, the Mack Wallace involvement in Austin, the Mack Wallace
composite down here, and the justification for the murder and the extreme
suspicious circumstances, and then the people that were trying their
best to cover the situation up. It all points up to what he said was right.
I mean all evidence points that way. I’m not saying it was or wasn’t, but it
all points in that direction, you see? Because it’s logical. It’s absolutely logical that.
Estes could never have gotten all of the money out of the federal government
that he got out of there without having help. It had to be big help. See?
There’s no way in the world. . . I sign government checks here all the time,
but there’s no way in the world he could have gotten all that unless he had big
help in the Agriculture Department.
SAXON: You’re
talking millions of dollars.
PEOPLES: We’re
talking millions of dollars. You also got your burning situation where
millions was involved. You got your hydroammonia tanks where he made
millions out of that. But these politicians also. . . Of course, you read in
the paper where he said Ralph Yarborough was involved in it. And it all points
up pretty good to what he said. And it can be absolutely brought to a pinpoint
head if the Justice Department would go ahead and do it. I wish they would.
SAXON: Did
he ever say to you, “Marshal Peoples, Johnson told me this in these several
meetings that we had,” or “Johnson was there.” I know it came out in the papers
that there were at least four meetings that he attended.
PEOPLES: Yeah, he
told me that.
SAXON: Did
he say why Johnson would actually consider encouraging that somebody be
terminated?
PEOPLES: He told
me that he had a meeting with Cliff Carter, Lyndon Johnson, and Mack Wallace.
Now this is what he told me. He said that they had that meeting together and
they discussed the facts that there wasn’t any way that they could hush Henry
Marshall up. Henry Marshall was blowing the whistle to the degree that it
was going to involve every one of them, and they all were going to the
penitentiary. That’s what Estes told me. I’m not saying what he told the grand
jury, I’m saying what he
told me in this investigation. They knew that Henry Marshall had arrangements
made, and the two days before Henry Marshall was killed, I found a letter
saying that he was going to Washington. He had a meeting of his people down
there in Bryan or somewhere, and he was going to Washington. He now had the
goods. He was going to Washington to straighten it out the following Monday,
but he never made it to Washington. He didn’t make it any further than
that ranch. And they tried to put out through this press release and
everything, that Henry Marshall tried to . . . Estes told me that Johnson said,
“Get him promoted. Give him a big job in the Agriculture Department. Get him
out of there. They tried it. They
wrote him letters, but he turned them down. He wouldn’t accept it. It’s in my
files. He wouldn’t accept this promotion, you see. And so then, when this meeting came about, they
all decided that the “fat’s in the fire.” Then Estes said that Johnson’s
statement was, the paper said that Estes said that Johnson called for the
assassination or something to that effect of Henry Marshall. But he said
Johnson didn’t say that. He told me this, that Johnson didn’t say that. He said
this, “He has got to go.” That was a statement of attitude to me. “He has got
to go.” And I even made a release to the press that that’s the way he told me.
He didn’t say that Johnson said, “Kill him, assassinate him, or anything.” He
said, “He’s got to go.” He tried to transfer him. I got the evidence
that they did. They tried to transfer him, but he wouldn’t accept it. Offered
him a big job in the Agriculture Department; he wouldn’t accept it. That’s
physical evidence. So this concludes, pretty well, that all of this stuff is
right. And then he told me how the thing came about, about a mysterious car
being in the area. And they got excited, and Cliff Carter came in and told him,
he says, “Was that you down there?”
SAXON: Talking
to Mack Wallace?
PEOPLES: Estes.
SAXON: Oh,
Estes.
PEOPLES: “Was
that you that came in that mysterious car?” A car showed up in that area? “No,
it wasn’t me.” “Okay.” So it’s a big case. It’s a case right now that has just
surfaced.
SAXON: Now
I don’t understand about the mysterious car. Can you be a little more specific?
PEOPLES: No,
because . . .
Yeah: I
can be more specific. During the time that Henry Marshall was being murdered, Estes said that they told
him--that Wallace told him and that Cliff Carter told him--said, “We are
concerned because a mysterious car showed up in the area. We hope they
didn’t get any long-range photograph of the situation.” Now that’s what Estes
told me.
SAXON: And
what did Estes tell you about the bag? About the bag you had found?
PEOPLES: He told
me ahead of time that they had used a plastic bag.
SAXON: Was
Estes actually involved in. . •
PEOPLES: No,
not in that. He wasn’t involved in that. I think
there’s one other person that was involved, and I
think Estes knows who he is. But he didn’t tell me.
SAXON: You
mean he actually participated in the killing. There are two people?
PEOPLES: Mack
Wallace and somebody else. He hadn’t divulged that to me, but I think there
were.
TAPE 2,
SIDE 1
SAXON: I
was asking why you felt there were two people involved in the actual murder of
Henry Marshall.
PEOPLES: Some
innuendos, hints of things that happened to me, you know. He never told me for
sure, and he never did tell me . . . whenever I got to the details on it, he clammed up on who this other
person might have been. And I think I know; I think I know now. I’m not even
going to put that on this tape.
SAXON: Like
I say, don’t tease us that way.
PEOPLES: No,
I think I know. I think I’m eventually going to find out about it too.
SAXON: Then
you are pursuing this?
PEOPLES: Every
avenue I know how. And I’ll tell you another thing, if the Justice Department
would go ahead and finish this investigation up, I’d say on this tape right
now, I think I got some information that might be of some importance to them.
And I would tell them too.
SAXON: Well,
you’re an employee of the Justice Department. Aren’t you?
PEOPLES: That’s
right. That’s right.
SAXON: Have
you attempted to follow up this case?
PEOPLES: They are
very familiar with it.
SAXON: I’m
sure. They must
be. But so far they’ve been stonewalling on you?
PEOPLES: They.
. .well, let me say this. I think the Justice
Department,
I’m talking about the Attorney General’s Department now, I think they’re a
little bit reluctant to believe what Estes is saying. But if they knew how to
put it together, they could believe it. And I think the thing could be brought down to where
Estes would have to tell who this other man.
SAXON: Well,
Estes has been granted immunity for prosecution for . . .
PEOPLES: He
has on his part.
SAXON: And
you are the one who arranged that immunity. Is that correct?
PEOPLES: Well, I
talked to the district attorney down there. He offered, I didn’t have to talk
to him, and Henry Wade offered immunity here. The Justice Department offered
him immunity, but for some reason or other he’s held up on them for some reason
or another.
SAXON: Who?
Estes?
PEOPLES: Estes.
He held up on them for some reason or another, and I don’t know. There is a
possibility that after this election it may open up. I don’t know.
SAXON: What
election are we talking about?
PEOPLES: I’m
talking about this last presidential
election. I
don’t know, you
see, it may be that the Justice Department is so snowed under that it may,
during this election period, it may be that they want to take a look at it. I
don’t know. I can’t speak for them. And I’m not investigating this case now. I
can’t investigate, it’s out of my jurisdiction. I was only interested in that
murder case, but this man here, the federal judge here, he got awfully mad at
me because I was working on it you know.
SAXON: Let’s
talk about the repercussions that you had to endure as a result of the Estes
thing hitting the paper. That is, you going out, talking to Billie Sol
Estes, and then he testifies to the grand jury, and the grand jury in that
county says that it wasn’t suicide, it was murder. They can’t pursue it any
further because all the people are dead. What happened to you personally after
that?
PEOPLES: Well,
I didn’t get any heat. The
only heat I got, and I didn’t give a damn anyway, was from a
couple of federal judges who wanted to criticize me for “running around” with
Billie Sol Estes. Of course, they went beyond the call of duty. And I had not
talked about this with anybody. And I think this particular part of it should
be closed until a later date--on the federal judges. But I do want it in the
record. I want it to be right. They called me down to the office of Judge
Robert Hill, who is now on the Fifth Circuit, and started criticizing me for
the fact that I was working on this case, which I was working on the murder
case, nothing else. I was working on it as a result of the instruction of the
U.S. Attorney, who is my attorney, and also the fact that it was a murder case,
and I was the only one who had any involvement in it. I was duty bound. And so
the chief judge made a statement to the effect that he didn’t want me to
embarrass his judiciary, and also the fact that I was getting a lot of
publicity. Also he wondered if I wasn’t trying to sell books. I let him
go ahead and talk.
SAXON: That
was. .
PEOPLES: Judge Hal Woodward, the chief
judge, federal judge, which was way beyond the call of duty. Judge Hill did not
open his mouth. Judge Hill sat behind his desk when they asked me these
questions and shook his head. Judge Hill knew they weren’t right. But,
anyway, when I got through I answered all of his questions very pointedly. Oh
yeah, he asked me, he said, “If the newspapers are bringing out stuff that
somebody leaked something to the grand jury, I just wondered if it was you?” Of
course, that made me pretty furious. And I answered his questions in a very
firm manner. I told him,
first of all, I didn’t appreciate the questions he asked me. They were beyond
the call of duty. And also he asked me, “When I got here, and I found out
everybody here knew I was coming. Did you tell them?” “In the first
place, I didn’t know if you were coming or not, and didn’t care if you were
coming or not. It had nothing to do with that.” I talked right back to him about it because I don’t owe
him anything. I was going to investigate a murder case, and they’re involving
themselves in something here that’s more or less obstruction of justice.
They’re the ones that should be taken to task for it. But I haven’t said
anything to the press or anybody else, on account that I work here, and I want
to make the rest of my time here if I can. But every dog will eventually have a
chance to wag his tail. On this one, I’m going to wag my tail because’ this
wasn’t right. But again, I do
want this portion of it closed until after my tenure here. And so it came to
this fellow, Judge Barefoot Sanders, and he came out with some very pointed
things. He says to me, he says, “Running around with of Billie Sol Estes, you
opened this whole case up. You opened this murder case up. You are believing
what he said. You did this and you did that.” And he says, “I’m ashamed of
you.” And he said, “You’re not fit to be United States Marshal of the Northern
District of Texas. I think you ought to resign.” When he got through I
said, “Are you through?” He said, “Yes:” I pointed my finger in his face and
pointed over to Judge Woodward too, and I said, “I want to tell both of you something, if you weren’t”
hiding behind these black robes you got, I’m seventy-three years of age, and
I’ve never been talked to this way in my life. If you weren’t hiding behind
these black robes, you wouldn’t get by with it. And I’m not too sure you’re
going to get by with it anyway.” And I turned to Sanders and I said, “Let me
tell you something, I’ll put my credibility up against yours any day in the
week.” And I said, “Another thing, don’t you ever again call me in like this
and start reprimanding me over something because you all are wrong as you can
be about this and you know it. And don’t you ever do it again. Now you’re a
federal judge and all this, but you went beyond the call of duty here.”
And they wouldn’t even let me. . . I had my attaché case with a Billie Sol Estes tape in it, and I had the
records, and I was going to show them why I was working on this case. They wouldn’t
even let me take my attaché case inside the judge’s chambers because they
thought that maybe I’d be recording what we were saying. And I guess one of the
biggest blunders I ever did was not putting a body microphone on when I went in
there and talked to them. I wish and pray to God now I had. But, anyway,
I caught a lot of heat. Then
the press comes out and says that three judges chastised me. Well that’s
a reflection upon my integrity right then and there, and I thought I
suffered mental anguish over that thing. I really had anguish over that thing
because I’d never been criticized publicly or criticized other than what I was
doing was right. And I
told him, “The next time that you ever want to talk to me about anything like
this, you go and open your courtroom up there, and let’s call them all in so
everybody could hear what I’ve got to say to you.” And so it got hot, and he
didn’t open his mouth after that. And like I told him, I said, “I’m not too
sure you are going to get by with it. You are mistreating me for no reason on
Earth. I was investigating a murder case, and you haven’t done right a bit
about it. And someday my time will come.” And so Judge Woodward, all of
a sudden, starts smiling and says, “I’ve got to go. I’ve got to catch an
airplane, gentlemen. I’ve got to catch an airplane. I got to get out of here,
I’ve got to get an airplane.” And he jumped up from there and shook hands with
me and said, smiled to me and said, “Marshal, thank you for coming. I
appreciate very much your frankness in this.” Judge Hill got up, and bless his heart, came around the
desk, put his arm around me and thanked me, and he told me, “I appreciate you
Marshal.” I told this judge too, I said, “I’ll tell you one thing, I’ll never
resign. I’ll tell you that: And I’ll
tell you something else, I told you I’d put my credibility up against yours any
day in the week, and I’m going to tell you something else, there’s a lot of
people in this building who don’t like a bone in your body.” That’s the very
words I said to him. It’s pretty pointed to a federal judge.
SAXON: It
sure is.
PEOPLES: And
if this movie comes out, I mean this television series comes out, it’s going to
be pointed out in this series. And so every dog has a chance to wag his tail
sometime, and I hope I do because I am right!
SAXON: Somebody
must have leaked that to the press, that they had done that?
PEOPLES: Why it
was leaked by that grand jury down there. They leaked that to the press out of
that grand jury.
SAXON: No,
I mean the chastisement that you received from these judges.
PEOPLES: Sure. His
people did.
SAXON: Were
they in the session too.
PEOPLES: They
weren’t in the session. Nobody was in there but us. But his people leaked it to
the press that they had me down there. They did it purposely. I’ve never said
anything. I’m going to get a chance to say something some of these days. But I never said anything about
it, but the next morning I went down to see Judge Hill. [PAUSE]
SAXON: Okay,
go ahead. We were talking about- the session you had with the
judge.
PEOPLES: Yeah, I went down to see Judge
Hill because I knew he didn’t particularly like this situation. They could see
him shaking his head just like “what in the world are you all doing this to
this person for? Why are you doing it?” I know it’s wrong, but you could
see the expression on his face. And so the judge was awful busy that morning,
but he told me, “Listen, I’m going to shut down everything. You come down. I
want to see you and talk to you.” I went down there and he and I had a private
conversation in his office. He
said, “Marshal, I’m really sorry about this. You’ve done a good job as Marshal
here. And I’m really sorry about this.” And here are the words that he used, he
said, “Hal and Barefoot both are wrong.” And he said, “I’m going to talk to
both of them about it.” Judge Hill is on the Fifth Circuit. And, of course,
they were wrong. Judge
Woodward, I think, was brought into this situation because of the influence
Sanders has over him. He was brought into it. Judge Woodward, I give him
the benefit of the doubt. I didn’t like what he did, I don’t like it now. Sanders was the one that caused
him to get into it, and I didn’t figure out at the time why he was. .
.except for the fact that I knew he and Lyndon Johnson were real close.
Lyndon helped him on every turn he made. But, anyway, I couldn’t figure out why
he’d been so damn interested in this thing. Two days later, the press comes out
and says that •he went before that grand jury, and then this brought it to my
mind. Here you are, this is the reason you have stuck your ugly head up isn’t
it.
SAXON: Have
you. . .
PEOPLES: And
whenever I leave here, you all can use this any way you want to because this is
the true facts in there.
SAXON: Have
you come into contact with Judge Sanders since then?
PEOPLES: I see him
once in a while. I don’t fool with him.
SAXON: So
it’s a pretty cool relationship?
PEOPLES: As
far as I’m concerned, I’m going to serve his courts with my people. I’m going
to handle it in a judicial manner. I’m going to handle it in a diplomatic
manner the best I can, but he’s a difficult person to deal with. If he speaks
to me, I’ll speak to him. If he doesn’t speak to me, I won’t even speak to him.
I’m not a two-faced person, and I don’t disillusion these people, but I damn
sure won’t sacrifice principle. I’d rather walk out of this thing right now.
SAXON: I
read in one newspaper account, not of that, but going back to Billie Sol Estes’
story, the Wallace family--some of his brothers live in Dallas--and they were
very critical of you. I don’t know if you read the same stories as I did, and
one of them accused you of planting these ideas in Billie Sol Estes’ head. Why
don’t you for the tape give your reaction to that.
PEOPLES: I
didn’t read that, but it doesn’t make any difference. It’s like some of Lyndon Johnson’s people, like
Walter Jenkins, came up and started doing a lot of big talk and everything, and
Walter Jenkins was some of that same crew, you know. But after the
evidence began to show up good, Walter Jenkins was either told to shut his
mouth or he decided that he better be careful because his involvement could be
deeper. As far as Mack Wallace’s brother, I could care less about what Mack
Wallace’s brother said. I don’t even worry about those kind of things,
because Mack Wallace’s brother, he didn’t know one thing in the world about
what all happened there. If he did, he should have come forward and told about
it. But he wouldn’t do it, he wouldn’t tell it. Of course, he wouldn’t.
Naturally, he’d be trying to defend his brother, but he had no reason, if he
said that--and I didn’t see it--he had no reason to say it because it’s a
cockeyed lie.
SAXON: You
never dealt with his brother?
PEOPLES: No.
I don’t know him, don’t even care anything about him. If he is like Mack
Wallace, I don’t care- to deal with people like that.
SAXON: Have
you heard or been in contact with Billie Sol Estes since all of this?
PEOPLES: Yeah I
have, several times. He’s called me and I’ve called
him. As time permits and as occasions arise, I’m going to be in contact with
him because I know that, sometime or another, he’s going to have one of the
most jarring statements to make that the nation’s ever been confronted with.
SAXON: So
you think it’s actually deeper than what we’ve been told?
PEOPLES: I don’t think, I know it. I know it.
SAXON: You
think Estes would eventually come forward?
PEOPLES: I
think he will.
SAXON: All
he needs is more immunity.
PEOPLES: I
think so.
SAXON: You’re
being very evasive today, right at this point in the interview. Do you feel sometimes that you’re
the lone voice in this thing because the press has come down pretty hard, not
necessarily on you, but on Billie Sol Estes.
PEOPLES: Oh
sure. The press came down
hard because of people like Walter Jenkins and the “big wheels.” A lot of
Lyndon Johnson’s old friends like Barefoot Sanders, this federal judge here.
They’ve come down pretty hard. You see the press has got to be careful about
what they say. Unless they can prove what they say, they’re in bad shape. Well,
anybody has to and anybody should. If I’m going to tell you anything as a
matter of fact, I will be able to tell you where I’ve got the evidence. I’ll
tell you something came out in the investigation. See, as an investigator I can
say it came out in the investigation. I couldn’t say, and wouldn’t say, as a matter of fact, unless I
absolutely have it just like some of the papers on Marshall. Some of the
letters on Marshall.
SAXON: The
evidence points to this, right?
PEOPLES: The
evidence points toward this, yeah. Just like the evidence points. I’m going to
say something on this tape, I
predict before I die that there will be one of the most jarring international
scandals that’s ever been as a result of this investigation. Of this one
SAXON: I
say go on. You can’t say any more than that at this point?
PEOPLES: That’s
about all I can say at this point. If I didn’t have a real good reason to say
it, I wouldn’t say it.
SAXON: Heaven
forbid, if anything happened to you before this happens, is there other ways
this story will eventually come out?
PEOPLES: I
think so. Yeah, I think so.
SAXON: Is
there somebody pursuing it like you are?
PEOPLES: You
see, I’m not pursuing this. I’m not pursuing this. I’ve only pursued the murder
investigation, but I’ve held steadfastly to the fact that my jurisdiction was a
murder case as a Ranger captain of Company F. My situation is--I don’t care who
they are, a federal judge or anybody else--anybody that comes in here and tries
to impede a murder investigation is wrong. Mrs. Marshall and her little eleven year
old boy that had to live under a situation where his father was accused of
committing suicide, which actually wasn’t true, and the cheap politicians and
these cheap people that will get in and try to cover it up in order to protect
a low-life politician, I don’t like it. I don’t like it now. This is not
protecting society. What’s happened otherwise--these people that might have stolen millions of dollars
and other things, that’s not my investigation. What’s happened about the
cotton allotment, about all that government money they got. They took my tax
money when they went along with this. Like I told Estes, I said, “Let me tell
you something Billie Sol, you couldn’t have done what you did as far as getting
all this money out of the federal government unless you had help in the high
ups.” And I said, “As result of it, you’re getting it and you know it,” and he
said, “That’s right.” “And as a result of you getting it, you wouldn’t have
been in trouble if those politicians had been honest rather than a bunch of
thieves.” I don’t care if
it was Lyndon Johnson or anybody else . . . if they did that, they stole my tax
money, they’re a bunch of thieves and they’re guiltier than Estes was, because
he could not have done it. If you come in here and asked me to do
something that’s wrong and illegal, then I’m guiltier than you are. See the
point. It’s out and out bribery, and they led him into all of this trouble. Let
me tell you, the press says he is a pathological liar, but I’m not going to
defend his integrity, that’s up to him to be able to establish that. But I am
going to say this, if he’s a pathological liar then I’m not going to vouch for
his credibility. But if he’s a pathological liar, I’d like to see where he’s
ever said anything. And a person has got to say something to lie. Does that
make sense? I have never seen where he ever made a statement until he told
me what he has about this case. That’s the way I see that, and I still see it.
I hope and pray to God that this whole thing someday will unravel, and these
people that don’t go ahead and try to get it unraveled are missing the boat. A lot of people take the
position, oh well, he’s already dead, or well they are already out of the
office. The hell with that. Those people that got by with that need to be . . .
if they’re dead now, they still need to be exposed as a deterrent against
future things like this.
SAXON: In
a word then, do you believe Billie Sol Estes?
PEOPLES: I believe
lots of the things he says. Now I’m not establishing,
trying to establish, his credibility. The reason I believe a lot of the things
is because the evidence will point in that direction.
SAXON: Is
there anything you would like to add to today’s tape? It’s been a fascinating
tape. And you left a lot of clues, but. . .
PEOPLES: I
can’t add a great deal to this tape at the moment, but I can add if the United
States Justice Department, if they ever want to talk to me about this--as I
say, I’m not making an investigation on it--if they ever want to talk to me
about it, I know that I have got some real good evidence that can really,
really pinpoint a lot of things which would be very, very beneficial to a
national investigation. I can do that. I’m saying this as a matter of fact. I’ve got
information, I’ve got knowledge, I’ve got evidence and things that I can point
them to the right direction.
SAXON: They
just have to show some interest.
PEOPLES: And
I’ll tell you something else on this tape, if they ever Just want to show the
initiative to do something about it, I can get Estes to talk to anybody.
SAXON: Well,
he said the only reason he was talking was because of you.
PEOPLES: That’s
right. I’ve never done anything for him in my
life, except treat him nice. And convicts like honest officers, they like
people with integrity. I would never double-cross Billie Sol Estes, no more
than I would ever double cross anybody else. I hate a cheap double-crossing
officer. I don’t do that. I’ve got many death penalty statements from people
who got the death penalty. But I never double-crossed them. I’ve got people I
sent to the penitentiary for years, and hell, I don’t pay attention to whether
or not they are going to shoot me in the back. I don’t do it. I handle my
business on a high plane--my investigation on a high plane. I handle them by
being truthful. Just like this phone conversation you heard a minute ago with
that reporter in San Angelo in regard to this court deal. I handle it on a high
plane. I like to be professional, but if I get out of here and lead somebody
into a situation that double-crosses them, I’m a bigger, low-life crook than he
is himself. That’s not my business. I started out in this business fifty-four
years ago as being fair, and I never did like to put my work into personal
things. I want it in an official capacity. I want it to be where I can live
with it. I want it to be where I don’t have to look back, or I don’t have to
apologize to somebody for my official actions. And that’s my life, that’s my
life. And when I leave this earth, the people are going to be able to say that
because they have never caught me double-crossing anybody.
SAXON: Marshal
Peoples, I appreciate your candor and openness today, and I’ll be back again
next Wednesday. Thank you.
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